What makes a reader fall so hard for a book that they buy it again, this time in a special edition to keep on the shelf? To understand that kind of devotion, I invited Stacy H. Ryman to join me for a new conversation series I’m calling Ask a Reader.
Stacy is a huge romantasy reader with strong opinions and sharp insights. I know very little about the genre, so she walked me through the appeal—and explained why the books people dismiss as “fairy porn” deserve a closer look.
We talked about world-building, sex, familiar formulas, and an active community that keeps the conversation going long after the last page. We also got into how she discovers books, what makes her abandon one, and what earns her loyalty to an author. If you write books of any genre, there’s plenty here to think about.
Watch our conversation above, or read the transcript below. And yes, I left with a reading assignment.
Editor’s note: This conversation has been lightly edited for length and clarity and because I say “like” too often.
Introduction
Panio: Hey, everyone. Today’s conversation came out of a dinner with friends. I asked Stacy what she was reading, and she mentioned the new Sarah J. Maas. If you don’t know her, she’s the author of the hugely successful A Court of Thorns and Roses series, one of the biggest names in romantasy. And if you don’t know romantasy, it’s fantasy meets romance. It’s been a huge force in fiction publishing the past few years. [Mass] alone has sold something like 75 million copies of her books.
Stacy, I know you’re an avid romance reader, and I’m pretty ignorant on the genre. At Author Insider, I interview authors, editors, agents, publishers—all these people about publishing. But I almost never sit down with an actual reader and say: What do you love? Why do you love it? What books do you pick up? What books do you put down?
Of course, I know you personally—we’re friends—and I know you have great taste in books. We don’t just have to talk about romantasy. We can cover different genres. But I’d like to start with romantasy because it is such a phenomenon in publishing, and it doesn’t seem to be going away. It reminds me a little of superhero movies. They started coming in, and people were like, “They’re going to go away.” And they’re still here decades later.
Welcome. Thanks for joining me. Welcome to Ask a Reader, the inaugural episode!
Getting hooked on romantasy
Panio: What got you into romantasy? Was it Sarah J. Maas? Was [A Court of Thorns and Roses] the first book you read?
Stacy: It was, yeah. That’s often the gateway drug. Technically, I did read Twilight, so that would count, I think. But Twilight wasn’t as spicy as ACOTAR, as it’s known amongst the fandom. A lot of these women who are really into romantasy grew up reading Harry Potter. I’m a little older than this—I still read them—but a lot of these women started there.
They were also really into The Hunger Games and Twilight. There’s a bunch of books you read when you’re young, when you’re learning what you like and what you don’t. I think there’s an appetite for fantasy in general. Then those women get a little older and still love the escapism, but it’s up a few notches. People used to be really embarrassed about what they were reading. They’d be judged for reading romantasy and wouldn’t want to talk about it. But now people are reading on a Kindle. Back in the day, maybe you were reading Anne Rice or something a little tawdry that wasn’t necessarily safe for the subway. Now you can read whatever you want, wherever you are.
You wouldn’t believe the shit people are reading on the subway. If I see someone with an ACOTAR book open, I have to look at them and be like, ‘How are you doing?’ It’s like a secret handshake. I love the genre. I think it’s really fun. Personally, I enjoy the books where the plot isn’t fighting for its life with the spice. I really enjoy the world-building.
I can’t say for sure, because I didn’t read these books in the ‘80s, but I believe the genre is way more sophisticated than it used to be. There’s a lot of intricate politics and world-building that I don’t think people are aware of unless they take a deep dive. A lot of the gateway drugs are not necessarily the best written. But you move through the series, and it gets better and better. These books are long, which is another exciting piece of it.
They’re sagas. You have time to fall in love with these characters. And they are experts at the dopamine hits. They have the beats. They are masters of a cliffhanger. They really do alter your brain chemistry while you’re reading them, which is good and bad, I would say.
Panio: There’s a lot to unpack there. First, I really liked your observation about how these readers came up through Harry Potter, The Hunger Games—essentially YA. Usually what happens is you age out of these genres and you’re like, ‘Well, I guess there’s no more fantasy for me.’ Unless you become one of those hardcore D&D [fantasy] readers—and I say this as somebody who used to read all the high fantasy books when I was a teenager. But say you’re not into that.
You’re like, ‘That’s just too fantastical for me, or even too childish.’ You’re kind of out of luck. Now you can have an adult version, literally and figuratively, of these worlds. Why not? Just because you’re 30, 40, 50 doesn’t mean you can’t still want this escapism. And, as you said, they’re more sophisticated than people give them credit for. They’re often the butt of a joke: ‘Oh, people having sex with dragons or fairies.’
And yet you could level that same dismissiveness toward George R. R. Martin’s books. How different really are they? There’s political infighting, a lot of sex, violence, world-building. I’ve read George R. R. Martin. He’s a good writer. They’re good books. But I can’t imagine it’s really that different an approach or style.
Stacy: George R. R. Martin is a great example, because there’s hardcore sex in those books, and they’re not exactly easily digestible. They’re not super reader-friendly. You really have to go for it and be into that kind of world-building. Nobody said a word about what was in those books. But a lot of women are into romantasy, and it is a bit of a joke. In terms of the overall spiciness, I’d say it’s very on par with George R. R. Martin.
Some books are definitely better than others. Some are formulaic, and I think that’s what a lot of people who read literary fiction have an issue with. They’re like, ‘Oh my God, this is ridiculous,’ or ‘This is the same trope over and over again.’ To be honest, that’s something a lot of these readers are interested in.
They go trope shopping: ‘I really love enemies to lovers. I love forced proximity.’ That gets them going, and they’re excited about it. There’s also a lot of criticism around the role women play in these books. From a reader’s perspective, the women are super empowered in a lot of them. I find it interesting that people say it’s demeaning to women when, in fact, consent is usually at the center of everything.
She doesn’t necessarily have to be rescued, which has changed. The criticism is that it’s ridiculous in a lot of ways, but it’s fantasy. They lean into it. You can get absorbed in it or not get involved and say, ‘That’s ridiculous.’ For me, it’s easy to do both. But I tend to just enjoy it. Look, it’s addicting. I’ll get addicted to anything that distracts me from the fact that I’m alive.
Panio: Those criticisms could be leveled at almost any genre, really. Maybe except hard sci-fi. Everybody’s got their—we call them guilty pleasures, which again is dismissive. I love Agatha Christie novels. There’s something about the drawing-room mystery. It’s incredibly repetitive. You could give me three books of hers I’ve already read and I won’t be sure I’ve read them. Maybe they sound familiar because they just go in and out.
But I enjoy the setup, the detail, her writing. People go to genre because they know what to expect. You’re not going to get your mind blown by something different. It always seemed weird to me to criticize something for being formulaic when its entire strength is that there is expectation built into it.
Stacy: That’s absolutely true. When things go off the beaten path, sometimes people don’t like it as much. By the way, I started reading this mostly because my Instagram addiction was out of control. I was like, ‘I’m rotting my brain.’ I was such a big reader growing up.
I used to plow through books, and now I’m attached to this device and it feels horrible. I thought, ‘I need to put this phone down and get back into reading.’ If I’m looking for escapism through the phone, I can find it in other ways. I think that’s an appealing part of this: you’re getting some of the same dopamine release and feelings you might get mindlessly scrolling.
But at least your brain’s working. You’re keeping track of these characters. You’re into the politics. These books are layered. There’s a podcast I love called Dragons in the Details. Oh my God, these women—they take apart these books line by line. There’s Easter egg hunting. You mentioned the Marvel Universe. This is the closest fandom to comic book fandom I’ve ever seen, in terms of how much they love the lore, how excited people are about the next installment, and their opinions when books go to screen.
I know companies are trying to monetize that and come up with romantasy convention types of events. I’ve yet to see any that are really amazing, but I haven’t attended one personally. I do keep track of what’s happening in the industry to see how people are trying to monetize this audience. It’s kind of fun.
Panio: You’ve done marketing professionally, so it’s exciting to have somebody who’s a fan level their professional scrutiny at it. That’s another reason I wanted to talk to you: you have that eye and instinct to break it down. Where do you find the books? Is it BookTok, word of mouth, podcasts? How do you discover them?
Stacy: Mostly Bookstagram. I’m not big on TikTok, but most of these content creators are on both. I started following a couple of creators. One woman is hilarious—Kaila Books is her Instagram handle. She’s wildly funny and entertaining. What I love about her approach is that she’s not taking it too seriously. If somebody asks what she’s reading and what the plot is, she can’t keep a straight face because it sounds ridiculous. She keeps it light.
We’re all here for the vibes. We’re having a good time. None of these people are winning the Booker Prize anytime soon, but we’re having fun. Most of my recommendations come through these entertaining content creators. Once you see a few of them talking about a book, it’ll catch like wildfire: ‘Oh God, this book is amazing. Five stars.’ Then everyone is reading it. If you’re really voracious in your reading—I’ll take down a book a week, no problem.
And these are long books: 400, 500, 600 pages. If I have enough time and I’m really into it, I’ll stay up late and read. You want to stay current, I guess. If somebody’s talking about these amazing books, you’re like, ‘Okay, I’ll give it a try.’ I’m much more discerning now than I used to be. If it gets too repetitive or there’s not enough meat there, I’ll DNF it.
Panio: Right. Well, that’s good. Life’s too short.
Ebooks, special editions, and audiobooks
Panio: Do you primarily read physical books or Kindle e-books?
Stacy: Mostly Kindle ebooks. It’s a very specific fandom. If I read a book on Kindle that I absolutely love, I’ll see if there’s a special edition somewhere.
Panio: Special edition is the one where they have a very decorative design with colored pages and things like that, right?
Stacy: Yeah. Painted edges, that kind of thing.
Panio: I see it in the bookstores. They’re very colorful. There are tons of them.
Stacy: People in this genre are really into them. They’re like little trophies.
Panio: What about the audiobooks? Is that something that’s appealing? These books are so long, but I imagine it kind of drags it out in a nice way, too.
Stacy: It can be. Personally, it has to be incredible narration. If you listen to some of this text and it’s not done right, it is cringe so fast.
Panio: It’s like those movies where an American actor says a line and you’re like, ‘Oof.’ Then a British actor does it, and you’re like, ‘Okay, that’s all right.’ My liege.
Stacy: I tend to go for the ones narrated by British people because it sounds better to me. But if you’re listening to audio and there’s sex, it can be super cringe really fast. People talk about accidentally hitting play on an audiobook while they’re in line at the grocery store. It’s very embarrassing.
Reviews spice ratings and happy endings
Panio: You’ve mentioned Bookstagram, but what about Goodreads or Amazon? Does any of that matter, or is it mostly Bookstagram?
Stacy: People look at Goodreads as well. You have to really sift through. There’s also another app a lot of romantasy readers use, Fable. That’s a cleaner user experience, I would say. You’ll check some reviews to make sure most people like it. Then, with romance, you look at the number of chili peppers, right? You might not want to go past chili pepper number three.
Panio: Is chili peppers a thing everybody uses? A shorthand?
Stacy: Universal. Yeah.
Panio: Okay, so is it what, five chili peppers total?
Stacy: Yeah. Five is like, whoa. Yikes.
Panio: So one is tame.
Stacy: Super tame. It might be open door, but it’s basically fade to black. It’s there on the page, but it’s not going for it. Most of these books land in the two-to-three stage, where it’s all there on the page, but tastefully done. The good ones are where the spice actually adds to the character development. It’s there for a good reason—it’s important to the plotline.
I think that’s the difference between romantasy and something that’s more fantasy-forward but has a romance. Is the romance integral to the plot, or can it stand alone without it? In these books, you need stakes. They need to be high. That’s why I think romantasy versus contemporary romance has maybe taken off.
You’re in your mundane office job, and the world’s not ending. But you come home and get into something where the stakes are high. The payoff, the happily ever after, is important. People won’t necessarily read books without one. It’ll say it in the review: ‘Be careful. This one’s disappointing.’ The reviews lay it out in shorthand. These people know what to look for. It’ll say ‘HEA’ or ‘not an HEA.’
So you know: ‘Oh my God, I’ve invested all this time, and now I’m heartbroken.’ Or it’ll say, ‘Major cliffhanger, book one,’ so you’re prepared. ‘Oh God, this is going to be rough. What did you do to us?’
Panio: I can understand that. My daughter Adele reads a little around romantasy. If she finds out there’s not a happy ending, she usually doesn’t want to read. She also doesn’t want to watch movies if a dog dies. If she sees a dog, she’ll turn to me: ‘Dad, does the dog die?’ I’ll say, ‘No, it’s fine.’ She will not watch it if the dog dies. Everybody’s got their thing.
Men romance and impossible expectations
Stacy: What I don’t understand is why men haven’t gotten more into the genre yet.
Panio: That’s a great question. Let’s talk about that. Why do you think that is?
Stacy: If you wanted instructions on what women are into, it’s kind of a manual. Straight up. It’s 300 pages of fantasy foreplay. Just go for it. Read that. There’s a hilarious account I follow—a husband and wife. The husband has gotten into this, and his reactions are by far the funniest thing I’ve ever seen.
Panio: Do men write romantasy? I feel like it’s always women’s names.
Stacy: Not that I know of. I haven’t seen any. I would imagine the spice would be different. It has to be from a woman’s perspective to understand what’s really important. That’s interesting about these books, and why women in middle age—the ones I know who read them—are feral for them.
If you’ve been married a long time and have kids, you’re not getting that rush of feelings you had during a young love. It’s just not possible. I think that’s why people in middle age were so into shows like Heated Rivalry. There was another hockey romance that was really hot for a while, too.
Sports romance is major. Keep an eye out for Amazon, because they’ve decided, ‘We’re going to own contemporary romance and romantasy.’ They’ve bought up some big titles, and you can expect to see a lot from them.
Panio: It’s wild to think of a genre almost exclusively written by women and bought by women. Having worked in publishing for decades, everybody says, ‘Women buy books.’ The data’s there. So why wouldn’t you promote this? Why wouldn’t you push for it?
Stacy: I’m married so happily, thankfully, but women are out there braving these apps in the world of dating. The one issue is that the men in contemporary romance and romantasy are ridiculously perfect. They’re made to a standard no man can live up to. Their boyfriends are moaning because they don’t want to go away because they can’t bring their favorite pillow. You’re not finding that in these books. Think of the difference. It’s insane.
Look at Fifty Shades of Grey. A billionaire who has those appetites—at best, he’s a sex addict. Probably a little bit of a sociopath, right?
Panio: The kindest interpretation is the sex addict, yeah.
Stacy: The kindest interpretation. Most of these are written to say, ‘Everybody wants him, and he’s a real family man at heart. He just hasn’t found the right woman yet.’ No. ‘I can change him.’ There’s a lot of that. Women love to change a bad boy. Love it. He’s finally settling down, and you’re the chosen one who made it happen. I understand the pushback around writing male characters no real man could live up to. That’s true.
Aging prose and a recommendation
Panio: That made me think of something: I’ve heard the protagonists are primarily younger women. Do they ever age up, marry the guy, and become middle-aged in the stories? What do you do in book five when the princess is 42 and married? Do they have children, or is it time for a new epic?
Stacy: There’s actually a tool for that. They’re immortal. They’re fae.
Panio: Oh, okay.
Stacy: They don’t age.
Panio: All right. So they’re just perpetually youthful.
Stacy: Hot and 25. That’s another attractive piece: there’s no aging. Great for people who don’t want to be bombarded by the fact they’re aging themselves. Being older, I really enjoy the ones where the female character is at least 30. I find that refreshing. I also read literary fiction, so I alternate. I need a palate cleanser after a lot of these books. ‘Let’s get back to some really great prose.’
But some are absolute masterpieces. Rachel Gillig is incredible. Her books are gothic romantasy—beautiful, poetic, gorgeous. I go toward those when I feel I’ve read a lot of candy. There are romantasy authors who write stunning books. I love finding the really well-written ones.
Panio: You’re going to assign me one romantasy book. Maybe two-to-three spicy, max. What should I start with? What would I enjoy?... Oh, I meant to ask: is it always first person?
Stacy: No. There are multiple POVs a lot of times, which is cool. I like that because we want to hear from the guy. Usually they don’t know they both like each other for quite a while, so the POV is important. I know you love great writing, so I’d start with Rachel Gillig’s One Dark Window. It’s a duology: One Dark Window and Two Twisted Crowns. They’re gorgeous. Depending on your appetite, there are also gorgeous books that fall into dark romantasy.
Dark romance and reader expectations
Stacy: I’m noticing a shift in what readers are interested in. It’s almost like your tolerance gets to a certain level, and then you want something a little more insane. Dark romance and dark romantasy are big now. People say, ‘Check your triggers.’ There’s a giant list of trigger warnings. That’s not something I’ve seen before, but people are really into dark romance.
I think it’s because they’ve read so much romantasy that their tolerance has gone to a certain level.
Panio: That makes sense. You’ve been through it a number of times, then suddenly: ‘I want it, but different. More intense.’ What makes it dark? Darker themes, darker actions?
Stacy: Darker themes, abuse, kidnapping, definitely blurring the lines around consent. Horror, murder, intense scenes. Or the male main character will have had horrible abuse in his life, or she will, and the author explores that. If it’s well done, it can add to the story, but sometimes it’s really intense. You have to check triggers to make sure you’re not going to freak out. I’ve noticed that’s happening in the genre.
People want more and more; the stakes are higher. They want to be bawling their eyes out. That’s another fun thing with Instagram. They create grids and interesting ways to tell you: Where does this sit? Will you be crying in a puddle? I love the content creators. There’s a woman, Tierney Reads—she just goes for it. She’s a hysterical Australian woman who loves the filthiest stuff out there, and she’s so funny in how she talks about it. No one’s taking this seriously, but it’s a good time.
Book clubs and community
Panio: What about book clubs? This seems like it’d be something you’d want to talk about with friends. Does that happen?
Stacy: Not all your friends will be into these books. Most of mine aren’t, because they love literary fiction. The books have to win a prize, whatever. They’re a little more highbrow. But I love finding women who are into it. There’s major community around this. This is the first time I’ve been involved in a fandom where I’ll comment. I never comment on social media.
I’m not that person, but I feel strongly about certain things in these books. I’ll comment, and it’s very interactive. A lot of these creators write you right back. It’s engaging. Many have virtual book clubs, sometimes through an app like Fable. Now they’re into retreats, which I think—good for them. They’ll do major book retreats: ‘Let’s read this Gothic novel and travel to Ireland, and we’ll talk about it there.’
There’s a lot of extension around this. You might read literary fiction and be one and done: ‘That was beautiful. Can’t wait until the author writes another book.’ That’s the end of it. They don’t want to live with that character. There’s something about the way these books are written that makes you care a bit more. So, yes, there are book clubs.
I don’t even understand what’s happening with reading in the culture right now. It’s considered cool. People are having reading parties, just sitting there reading, which I find interesting. There’s a lot to talk about with these books. They’re pretty polarizing. Book clubs are a great idea. I should start one.
Panio: You should. You know your stuff. You’ve got deep knowledge of this. I was a total book nerd growing up—hard to believe. We’d go to Greece to visit family in the summer. One summer, in every family photo, I’m in the back reading a different book. It’s like Where’s Waldo. Totally introverted, checked out. My cousins made fun of me.
Now I think I was just ahead of my time. Thirty-five years too early. Apparently it’s cool to sit by yourself and read a book for hours.
Judgment crossover readers and fantasy
Stacy: People have a lot of opinions if you’re reading romantasy. Because people know I like these books, anytime they see me reading, they’re like, ‘Oh, is that fairy porn?’ And I’m like, ‘No, it’s not.’
First of all, it’s not all like that. I want to dispel the myth that every chapter is like that. In a 400-page book, there might be four sex scenes, tops. The rest is intricate plot.
The one I think bridges the gap with men is Fourth Wing. I’ve seen men get into that one. If you’re looking at the genre and wondering why people are so into it, that’s a broad one. People love Fourth Wing. It’s a lot of fun. Dragons.
Panio: Dragons—that’s the crossover. Guys, girls, people like dragons.
Stacy: The dragons have sex in this one. So that was where people got a little freaked out about it.
Panio: Dragons got to be dragons. Got to make more dragons, right? I remember in the early 2000s, chick lit was disregarded or demeaned: ‘Oh, it’s chick lit.’ Every 10 or 15 years there’s another genre that does very well commercially and gets derided and disregarded. Now it’s romantasy. But it’s such a juggernaut, I think people can’t just make fun of it anymore. It’s massive.
Stacy: It might not be your cup of tea. If you’re just going to read ACOTAR, A Court of Thorns and Roses, that first book especially—okay. But get to book two, and things really pick up. It might not be something you’re into, because that’s as formulaic as it gets. It’s nice to see what people are excited about, I suppose. But that’s more of the gateway drug. There are fantastic books that come after that.
I can send you a romantasy starter kit.
Panio: Please do. I want to see it. Send me the list.
Stacy: There are great contemporary romances in there, too. Those tend to be a little more fantastical, believe it or not, because no man in real life would behave this way. That’s why I have an issue with the contemporary ones. Whereas if we’re swashbuckling in medieval times, it’s fine for me. Expectations have changed.
Panio: There’s an equivalent. I read a lot of scripts, and in these screenplays written by men, the women are so not real women…. She has no interior life, nothing going on, no dreams of her own. The Bechdel test and all that. I think it’s something both sides struggle with.
If you don’t put in the effort to see it from someone else’s point of view, you have flat characters that serve a fantasy function—fulfilling this fantasy.
Stacy: Especially with sex scenes. The way these books are written, they’re very empowering. Over the course of a book, women can understand what they like and don’t like, figure out a lot about themselves on the page, which I think is cool. Even a younger woman can read this and think, ‘Huh, I’d be into that,’ and explore what she might be interested in safely.
As opposed to watching porn, you’re into the narrative, and the care and comfort provided for the women in these scenes. It’s important.
Closing thoughts
Panio: That makes a lot of sense. I’m excited. I’m going to read One Dark Window. This has been great. Thank you for diving deep into this. It’s fascinating as a genre and a cultural phenomenon. I think it’s revealing about what’s going on.
Stacy: I’d expect to see a Comic-Con-level event pop up. That’s next. We’re seeing everything show up on screen now, and I think it’s going to mirror the comic book craze.
Panio: You should do it. Why don’t you start? Start a convention! All right, thank you again. This has been great.
Stacy: Thanks for the chat.
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Until next time,
Panio
